They are, however, much more efficient than resistors, which dissipate the power produced by the amplifier as heat. "Perfect phase (coherence)" in a loudspeaker, just what is this? All Activity; My Activity Streams . This protects the tweeter from harmful high power that may be present at the lower frequencies, and keeps intermodulation distortion to a minimum in the tweeter. I find this approach fascinating and wanted to have a listen. As such it's an easy compromise to live with. It is this phase difference which is referred to as the TIMBRE & its is very characteristic of an instrument, its what makes the guitar sound like a guitar and for that matter an acoustic uitar like an acoustic guitar different from other guitars. So for many speakers the correct time/phase may only exist at one location in space and if it's so important . As I get older, I favour simplicity. The impulse response is extremely easy to measure and tells you almost everything you need to know. Ill give you a ring to audition the 18 subwoofers when I move into a house one day. It is possible to get low distortion, with cone drivers. Karls, I believe that John Bau of Spica designed time coherent speakers with other than 1st order cross-overs. In an "idealized" first order filter, there is a woofer inductor and a tweeter capacitor, each of which has a 45 degree phase shift at the crossover frequency, but in opposite directions. Product Info Designer's I don't believe I've knowingly ever heard a time coherent speaker . Tannoy uses the curvelinear mid-woofer cone as the HF waveguide, rather than having a separate central horn. I may be wrong but I don't believe that Karl's statement is correct. They sit on small stands which raise them 7 off the ground. The ULS-15 (with wireless option!) Anything that bounces off the magnet assembly and support then back into the cone smears the signal. The nice thing about vintage is that you can enjoy the speakers for a few years, and turn around and sell them for the same price. Its been months now since the review, but each time I fire these guys up, I still think, This is the sound of music!, Hi excellent review. Opinions? CRITICAL ISSUE No more unsightly box and wire clutter from preamps, amps, transports, and D/A converters. We've heard Think Different and Frank has done just that. Twl, only first order filters are phase coherent, no exceptions. There are a couple of other brands too - Thiel, for one. My last two pairs of speakers in my main system were time coherent. At least right now. Localization is right on. I definitely hear something a little different when listening to Thiel speakers in terms of image specificity and a sense of dimension, but I don't know how much of that is due to their time/phase coherent design. not merely frequency and amplitude, but also: time. With the proper time delay on the woofer, the highs and lows are in sync. Vandersteen tries to get his speakers to perform in a manner that preserves this waveform and even though the phase angle does change, it is not going far in a positve or negative direction unlike some speakers. The world's largest high-end audio community. For a better experience, please enable JavaScript in your browser before proceeding. It's my experience that stats have low distortion and a clarity that's unsurpassed. I have said in many posts that accuracy is not that big of an issue it seems. Most speakers just try to reproduce all frequencies at the same In any case, the speed of sound will be constant for all frequencies at any given condition of the air at the time. Supertweeter. Tubes are fun, but their euphonic characters sometimes add a pleasant bloom to the sound that isnt there. Is this fully proportional, or are there some varying degrees of shift that are not cancelled ? Is it based on measurements or are you ears "truer" than mine (which could be the case considering the age factor!) The lot of these speakers go down to the low 40s before dropping off. Time coherence is as important as the amplitude response measurements typically taken. Autoformers match drivers of different sensitivities by multiplying impedances. This is done with a tape measure and takes a few minutes max. And are they being used correctly in the loudspeaker marketing material? But if he had accepted my offer, it wouldnt have been all that bad. Coherent Audio Speaker. Sonically Superior. - Official Dealer for vertical baffle - the place where the tweeter's sound originate. I've been wondering about this time and phase alignment thing recently. Blumlein 88 said: for large panels the sound will not be in complete time alignment except up close in nearfield because different parts of the panel are at different distances. On a side note, Radian is the last manufacturer who still builds and assembles all their drivers in the USA. "Phase coherent". How will it integrate with your other gear? Because all frequencies travel at the same In addition, I would not speculate that his sales are poor either; there are few speakers in the world that perform better than his in this regard. Nice setup! Fortunately, for us music lovers they left the drivers alone. Thanks Matt. It might sound splendid in the shop, but how will it couple with your room? One of the claimed benefits of electrostatic speakers is time and phase coherence across an extremely broad range and physical space. Internal Resonance Slats help control internal standing waves plus reinforce the panels helping to control wall flexure. Multiple-driver complexity or two-way simplicity? Anyone who has heard a time coherent speaker give your comments about them . Conventional speakers that have separate woofers and tweeters mounted on a panel are not time-aligned: the different frequencies arrive at the ear fractions of a second apart, smearing the presentation. The Coherent Audio Speakers are a single driver with a big twist. You have your choice of any amplifier. "The original Shearwater was an extrapolation of the Kestrel in a slightly larger cabinet," McGinty recalls, "based on two premium drivers, which met the demand for more revealing performance with tighter, deeper bass, better midrange resolution, more natural-sounding treble, and enhanced dynamics across the boardall based on our philosophy of extreme simplicity and time-coherence.". The pair of Ardens I auditioned, for example, must have been 40+ years old. I found that, with the Maggies, I would listen more to choral and symphonic works. Not so with horns. There are not that many speakers that produce this good a step response. Science has proven a bumble bee can't fly but it does. Ozfly, at the risk of appearing petty, Joseph still couldn't. I don't think so. Could have been cone sag or general design though. Time coherence - how important and what speakers? - High-End Audio And it digs down to 22Hz (-3dB) it ranked among the. The implication of what I read is that they can be tuned to your room, is this correct? Along with those mentioned above, Meadowlark is another company the adheres strongly to this design philosophy and much can be read about it on their website. My Devialet 120 started off as a Devialet 110 five years ago (purchased in 2013 sight unseen). So, I've done my best tomake these ideas simple, but if you get I dunno, I have really enjoyed the quality of the smaller UREI coaxials I have in my multimedia room. Follow along with the video below to see how to install our site as a web app on your home screen. Coherent Audio Loudspeakers As I have previously stated, I am consistently attracted to time coherent designs. Hi Edwin, wow you are spot on with your review.I went for speed and accuracy with the Golden Ratio cabinet shape . As you Look at the electrostatic impulse response and phase graph. Granted, there aren't many out there, but they do it for me like no others can. ears before the sound from the woofer. I've been doing some simulation on how to convert a regular speaker to time-phase coherent. I couldnt get them placed in my room without time smear distortion from the back wave. Once I was exposed to the time aligned and phase coherent systems, I will not be going back. An octave is either a doubling, or halving of frequency, and six decibels means either a quartering or quadrupling of Warning : Speakers with vertical baffles are NOT time coherent ! Horns are quite different than Magnepan panels in this regard. Whats more, crossover design is a hotly debated subject so it certainly deserves your attention. But whereas the Synthesis K2s are a three-way design, the Retro 15s are a time-coherent two-way design. Purists will inevitably poo-poo adding a sub to such a brilliant time-coherent speaker, but purists be damned! This part will use ideal drivers. There is a nice, easy to understand overview on Thiel's website: . Well, there's your debate. In non-coherent speakers the output signal doesn't look like the input signal, and that descends from using steep filters." Power in reserve. To do so it attenuates the signal in the frequencies that are not desired. Just look at some test results. #1 This may interest anyone integrating subwoofers with main speakers. The level of woodworking, from how the terminal posts are inset into the cabinet to how the model name is stamped into the cabinet, is superb. Frank is superb to deal with. Hope to see all my friends there. But it turns out my fears were misplaced. I have owned the MG-II and, more recently, the 3.7i. The bass from the Retro 15s and the La Scalas is more airy. Move up or down from that spot and they are no longer time aligned. It is big and it plays at -2dB at 17Hz or -6dB at 12Hz. A lot of box speakers (such as the Mirage M3s and the Golden Ear Triton Reference) go lower, but the horns sound much bigger. Have been in contact with Frank via email. It must have something to do with the radiation pattern of the sound? Discuss pros and cons. (Does anyone know what I'm talking about?). As an example the stock Platinum 15 driver is rated at 101 db 1W 1 Meter power handling of 650 WRMS but low cut off is 38 Hz. What speakers are time coherent? Never heard Tannoys, they've always been a rarity for me. I don't believe I've knowingly ever heard a time coherent speaker . Frank makes fantastic speakers. Made of 2"-thick MDF, the main baffle sits on a 1/16" layer of Keldamp, a proprietary damping material used liberally throughout the Shearwater, and to particular effect in the separate sealed subenclosure at the bottom of the cabinet, which houses the crossover. The cabinet work is as gorgeous as the sound. This is true of the Coherent Retro 15s as well as the Klipsch LaScala, another horn I lived with happily for many years. THAT is the crux of the matter. I am not about to slam on Joseph's speakers, because I think that he is correct on many points and certainly the results speak for themselves: a very clean and clear decay and very flat frequency response. Both speakers were attached onto a single pallet and shrink wrapped. Made especially for M1 Speakers. But people like them. At the heart of the Coherent Audio Retro 15 is a modified Radian 5215 15 Neo Coaxial Speaker. Full-range frequency extension or minimonitor coherence? Now we're getting somewhere. They claim that this results in deeper and more integrated bass than either sealed or ported designs. What we are talking about is the time that elapses between the arrival of the electrical signal at the input of the driver and when the acoustical signal leaves the driver. And they are, above 800 Hz, horn loaded, which makes them super efficient. Oh, and it sounds exquisite!!! I've been reading about them lately at GMA's website . Bookshelf Speakers. This is a Gold Star recommendation. I was under the impression that the capacitor or coil shift would be additive to the reactive element, and not be cancelled by it, in a first order configuration. Late night listening sessions are possible with horns. Frank told me that the 18" model really opens up in comparison with the 15" version. Thanks Tim, Hi Tim, Frank loves his low powered tube amps, thats for sure. Are full range driver loudspeakers time/phase coherent ? Nothing wrong with that. The Shearwater's cabinet is constructed from 1"-thick, high-grade MDF and a happy byproduct of McGinty's love of transmission-line woofer loading baffles is that the cabinet ends up massively braced. The reason may be that there is a huge (well, huge by audiophile standards) following for Tannoy dual concentric speakers. Ping me if youd like to come check them out. That's one of their biggest advantages. The rate of this attenuation is referred to as a filters order. The speaker measures 22 long x 13 deep x 34 high. It may not display this or other websites correctly. http://speakers.sub-optimal.net/thumbnails.php?album=16, http://web.mac.com/donaldpatten/iWeb/X-Over/X-Over.html, 2-way loudspeakers : phase coherent vs non phase coherent. HERE IS WHAT YOU SHOULD KNOW ABOUT THIS Well, I'm going to take one last technical stab at this. The tweeter will be rolled-off at 6db/octave, from the crossover point downward, in this configuration. The soundstage extends far beyond the edges of the left and right speakers, and the depth is awe-inspiring. They must be going for close to $25,000 (CAD) these days, so theyre out of my price range. So, a first order filter is down to 1/4 power at one octave, A second order is down to 1/16 power at one octave, 3rd order is at 1/64 power, and a 4th passes just 1/256th of the power at one octave! I ended up selling them. One thing thats been illuminating from measuring speakers: a big sound isnt the same as deep bass. If you reverse the polarity of the tweeter, you get the step response shown . Other brands that have my attention are NMST Jamaica 50 Watkins Gen 4/ and Bryson T2, for example. There was a Yamaha, a B&W, and Hsu. A designer can greatly expand each drivers usable band, perhaps increase the whole systems power handling, and minimize the overlap area between drivers. Time Alignment in Speakers | Audio Science Review (ASR) Forum The speaker radiates the frequency into the room and at some point, it arrives at the listening position. And Im sure it goes for six-figures. By adjusting the acoustical centers of the drivers, we can compensate somewhat for the time alignment. Said philosophy was arrived at through trial and error, but the day Pat purchased an affordable MLSSA analyzer afforded him insight into the speaker-design process. For a better experience, please enable JavaScript in your browser before proceeding. relative amplitude (flat frequency response) and completely disregard proper timing. And yes, you can use them with horns. Any thoughts? No speaker is perfect, as I said, and therefore is not truer unless you use a subjective analysis(as in your case---your ears.). I didn't get it at first, other than noting that instead of the minutes being marked off at 12 five-minute intervals, Jim's clock had 24 markings. or so out in front of the Filters attenuate in multiples of six decibels per octave 6dB/octave, 12dB/octave, 18dB/octave, etc. and form a point source. Therefore a first order filter consists of one reactive element, either an inductor or capacitor, in series or parallel with the load (the driver). Im running the Coherents with 120 watts of (mostly) class A solid state power. On the rear of the cabinet there are two ports. I also own Coherent speakers, mine are the 10 floorstander version and I love them. This ensures that the outputs from both drivers arrive at the listener's ears at the same time, and eliminates the horizontal off-axis lobing and comb filtering typically encountered in more conventional speaker mounting arrays. Can EPI and Dynaco be made time coherent ? Any thoughts on those or others be appreciated. About This Listing. ear to the issue of correct timing in our stereo systems. divide the signal into First, the spatially averaged responses for the Solos (p.117) reveal a variation in response of 6dB from 60Hz to 3500Hz with an almost 4dB depression between 2200Hz and 3500Hz. COHERENT AUDIO A CUSTOMIZED AND HANDCRAFTED LINE OF HIGH SENSITIVITY COAXIAL LOUDSPEAKERS DESIGNED AND BUILT WITH GREAT CARE AND ATTENTION TO DETAIL TRUE TESTIMONIES OF FRANK FAZZILARI DESIGN AND QUALITY THE NEW 2022 LINE CUSTOM MADE LOUDSPEAKERS - PRODUCT OF CANADA "THE EIGHTEEN" Flagship Floorstanding Loudspeaker I'll take a stab at Joseph Audio's post: First of all, no one ever claimed that time and phase coherence is the only important parameter in loudspeaker design (at least, no one with any sense). The sound stage is stable and does not wonder as you move about the room . I offered $2800, but the owner wanted $3000 firm. But I guess there are so many speakers for the same reason there are so many cars---to be different. I can't help but think this design is responsible to a large degree for how the speaker sounds. You see, the 5200 series Radian drivers were designed for punishing commercial use. Sounds like you want some Unity's, Terry. My questions are: Do think this is an important issue? What is this time/phase coherence thing . Each has a special super tweeter providing even more spatial imaging. Starting at US$14,950, + $300 Drop Ship Charge, it is not inexpensive, but it is one of the finest high-efficiency speakers available for use with low power SET amps. Hes built and tuned his speaker to work with tubes. Unless I were doing A/B comparisons or listening to electronic music with room shaking bass, I probably couldnt tell if the sub were on or off. contact us Engineering The software is Xsim which has enough basic stuffs for basic simulation. The green mountain speakers look like a serious acoustics experiment, not a piece of furniture. Note: photos without the super tweeter opening are older version. They are time-aligned. This happens mostly with classical. coherence is by physically offsetting the drivers, in our case by slanting the JavaScript is disabled. Whether that is because time alignment means nothign to me, or because other things about the Vandersteens were not to my liking, I can't really say. Also Frank wasnt sure what shipping would be to my location. I love the big 15s. One thing that horns do that no other speaker does is that they sound very lifelike from the next room. You have 275+ watts with the Parasound, so they will play as loud as you want to go. Also on the listening list at TAVES were the JBL Synthesis K2 ($80,000), the GoldenEar Triton Reference ($11,000), and various speakers by PMC. Speakers that really come close are the Dunlavys, Meadowlarks, Thiels, and Vandersteens. Unsound, you may have misinterpreted a comment just as I did when I first read it: JosephAudio wrote "more seasoned audiophiles voted for us at that show than any other system". recording. I'm enjoying my Tannoy Revolution DC6 immensely, and with the dual concentric driver they are, at least in theory, time aligned. Glad you enjoyed the review Matt! On most music, the effect of the sub is quite subtle, certainly more subtle than the measurements suggest. But first let's get some terminology out of the way. The Retro 15s, however, blow this legendary speaker out of the water. So all over map as far as configuration and style. Karls, thanks for the clarification. Coherent Audio - Retro 15 Neo Be Speaker Review - Doing Melpomene's Work They use very unique drivers that don't distort. In non-coherent speakers the output signal doesn't look like the input signal, and that descends from using steep filters." The Shearwater therefore uses a slanted baffle and a time-coherent, first-order crossover, a single inductor . With the Coherent speakers, the midrange is detailed and palpable. With the Coherent speakers, the treble is crisp. Thanks for the offer Matt . Being that I wanted it all, I decided to use a curved baffle to maintain Phase and Time coherency. They had new surrounds put in at Sound Hounds. "It also dissipates the woofer's backwave by forcing the acoustic energy through a long, convoluted set of internal baffles, plus some resistive stuffing so that the air will work against an even larger surface area of absorptive material.". Time coherency is a funny thing, a lot of people go to a lot of effort to make things time coherent, but in the end, they will only be time aligned at a single spot. I had a pair of UREI time aligned monitors from the late 70's (huge things). Although sealed subs may be more musical, a vented sub puts out power. This bloom masks subtle sonic cues and emphasizes others. Frank told me that the 18" model really opens up in comparison with the 15" version. Now another interesting thing about all these high-efficiency horn speakers (the Retro 15s, La Scalas, Ardens, and K2s) is that, while they seem to pump prodigious bass out of huge boxes, they dont actually go that deep. Sound wise, its like a horse-blanket. Is it easy to set up and drive or will it involve specialized gear and a massive overhaul of your current rig? I believe Vandersteen, Jim Thiel and a few others would debate his points. Time coherency is a funny thing, a lot of people go to a lot of effort to make things time coherent, but in the end, they will only be time aligned at a single spot. You must log in or register to reply here. Coherent can customize your speaker however you like and send you veneer samples via email. Note: This feature currently requires accessing the site using the built-in Safari browser. You are using an out of date browser. Onwards! I believe that the Vandersteens and Josephs are time coherent. When two drivers are mounted on a Will the Coherent speakers sound right with these type amps ? An example is a 4th order xo with 360 degree phase shift, you're still in phase but not time aligned anymore. Live Act Audio out of Germany uses the same driver in their Emotion and Reference Series of speakers. I love the Devialets analytic and revealing sound. General Hi-Fi Discussion; Activity. it is pointed out, but in high end audio we seem to turn a blind eye, or a deaf PHASE Coherence in Speakers | InsigniaHiFi In my research speakers that have caught my attention are NSMT 50 Jamaica/Watkins Gen 4/ and Bryson T2? Size and finish wise, they bear a physical resemblance to the DeVore Orangutan O/96, another lovely and well-regarded speaker. . Autoformers are much more expensive than resistors. It was a global search until they found the Radian drivers with its unique aluminum material that was developed exclusively for these drivers. I have a set of IMF CM3'S that are missing the original xover's and midrange drivers, I found, after much effort, the xover parts and replacement midrange drivers through Falcon Acoustics. Then there are the Tannoy Ardens, another 15 dual concentric speaker. What is this time/phase coherence thing . Klipsch is another manufacturer that combines high-efficiency horns with autoformers, at least in their Heritage line. Horns are efficient. Jeff, The last statement you made about "truer" sound is where the problem lies. On the GR and Reference series the crossover is set at 1100Hz. Pleasurable and forgiving or resolved and revealing? And a good deal. Partnering components during the review period included Zero One's Mercury HD/CD player, my Pro-Ject/Ortofon analog front end, Manley Labs amplification and Blue Circle's BmPH integrated. Im all ears. One of my friends, a jazz singer, commented that these were the first speakers she could make out subtle changes in pitch and timbre in her favourite vocal recordings. Maybe one day down the line though. 'Don't all speakers try to do that?' can see below, if the sound were (for the sake of graphic clarity) a square wave - the listener would not hear a square wave at all. Ive had tube amps I could fry eggs on. revealing nothing at all about time domain fidelity. Time coherence - how important and what speakers? But the bass from the Ardens was absolutely out of control. As a result, we naturally associate the sound of horns with live music. Sansui AU-666 (vintage solid state Frank told me this was the first amp he ever bought) The 2CE Sig.II was about the last model that actually did sound reasonably dynamic to me. The mid's aren't the originals of course but they are supposed to be drop in replacements, requiring perhaps a one to two Ohm resister to 'tame' them. Mr. Joseph wrote: "I've found that other things such as the dispersion characteristics, smoothness of power response, and clean decay corellate more powerfully with imaging and driver integration.". No need for half-kilowatt monster amps. Rob at Q-Electronic has also heard about Coherent Audio and the Radian drivers. You are setting what we call the "Soundfield Convergence" for time coherency at your seating spot. I've owned a couple of Thiel models and have to say that, to my ears, time coherence makes music palpably real. The improvement that I have heard with phase and time coherent speakers is subtle and may not be immediately attributed to the design. COHERENT AUDIO - Atelier 13 Audio #007: Time Alignment in Loudspeakers "Phase aligned". The right speaker almost conceals the sub. And the phase shift caused by the reactive element varies with frequency, as a function of the ratio of reactive impedance to load impedance. While I have heard speakers that I enjoyed that weren't Time coherent I am consistently attracted to speakers that are. A flat diaphragm is not timed aligned by looking at its impulse response and other factors. Front instead of dual rear ports. If, say, a single positive pulse is run thru the speaker system, then a single positive pulse from all drivers should arrive at the listening position at the same exact instant from the drivers with no ringing or images or echoes from baffle diffraction, ect, just as if a single perfect driver was the source. Its surprising that so few audiophile manufacturers have adopted them. To be able to charge up a room is great fun. Phase and Time align subs with main speakers | diyAudio I don't have a particular opinion on it, other than that I recently compared Vandersteens and MartinLogans, and for my tastes, it wasn't much of a contest. Yay! Measurements taken with Galaxy Audio Checkmate CM-140 SPL meter: The Retro 15s measured similarly in my previous condo: Theyre fairly flat from 50Hz and up. Loudspeakers and Time Coherence : What You Don't Know Can Hurt You A technical discussion by Pat McGinty, designer for Meadowlark Audio . Who needs such inefficiency anymore? Coherent Audio Loudspeakers | Line Intro The Radian 5215s combine two great technologies. Franks genius was to recognize that, if he could come up with an audiophile crossover, the Radian 5215 could be the centrepiece of a world-class home loudspeaker. Figure 20: Step response-tweeter polarity reversed. PAGE The phase shift created by a 24 db slope would be tuff to fix. The horn colouration, if anything is an advantage. Does anybody know about these last possibilities? And if he likes them, hes going to build a pair for his own use at home. Likewise, NEXT Now, chopping off a drivers output really quickly is a very, very attractive idea. baffle, and by employing first order crossovers (that is the single most They were professionally packaged in a box within another box. And for those of you wondering: Why not a sealed sub? the answer is that at my old loft-style place the sub had to energize a 15,000 cubic foot space (30x20x25). Similar size. Some may like their gigantic presentation. This is not the time the acoustical waveform travels through the air. I seem to remember they sounded rather bland. Are time coherent speakers better ? At what ? | Page 2 | Audiokarma . I usually listen alone. Comments appreciated . Yes, the points of sound origin are offset as with other coax speakers. How to the Coherent Retro 15s compare to other horns? Is this time thing clearly audible . "People are busy putting Tiptoes under their CD players," McGinty laughs. Richard Bischoff rbischoff 09-14-2002 1:57pm 1 2 3 4 Next Last At $80,000 it was listening only! JavaScript is disabled. I don't have the means or ability to test my listening impressions. These speakers are The floor standers hit low 30s and you do feel the air move with them. Too bad that driver is only like 84 or 85dB sensitivity. Can someone please explain to me how this crossover works? No *time smear* here! It is available through Amazon and B&N. Yes Im only 2.5 hrs from Des Moines. One (well, 2). This process is so new and unique a large conglomerate bought the company solely for the tech. Beryllium dome are available for both lines. It has a first-class sonic presentation and very low power requirements.
Floating Down The River With A Saturated Liver,
Budget Family Resorts In Bangalore For Day Outing,
Ct State Senators By District,
Articles T